Matt Mclaren – Episode 3 – Green Add Venture Podcast – Full Transcript

Matt Mclaren – Episode 3 – Green Add Venture Podcast – Full Transcript

Here you’ll find the full transcript for Episode 3 of Green Add Venture with Matt Mclaren.

Listen to the episode available here.

[0:02] Jake: Have you ever wondered what happens when entrepreneurship, environmental sustainability and venture capital collide? If so, you’re like me, and you’re in the right place. Welcome to the Green Adventure. On the show, you’ll learn from the critical insights of both founders and investors, not random advice or generic guides, but real stories born out of their experience with genuine climate action. We aspire to create a network of people collaborating to build the green economy, accelerating us towards this critical target of net zero emissions. I’m your host and founder of the show Jake Woodhouse. For all the notes, links and episodes, please visit Take care when typing that in, adventure is spelt with a double D. Thank you for listening and enjoy the episode.

[0:55] Jake: On the show today, we speak with Matt Mclaren, cofounder and CEO of Entomics. Entomics is developing technology solutions to grow insect, aiding in the fight against food waste, and reducing the carbon impact of supply chains. Having recently closed their seed round, including investment from Green Angel syndicate, they’re now looking to scale their business. Matt shares fascinating insight on how resourceful you can be well as bootstrapping, how important a blend of talent in the founding team can be and just why insects could be the key to a more circular food system. Enjoy what I found a fascinating conversation. So, hi, Matt, welcome on the show.

[01:35] Matt: Thanks, Jake, good to be here.

[01:37] Jake: So, just to kick things off Matt, I’d love to start from a very high level, could you please introduce yourself and explain a little bit about your current role?

[1:44] Matt: Sure, no problem. So, I’m Matt McLaren, I’m the CEO of Entomics Biosystems Limited and we’re a company based in Cambridge, a startup focusing on using insect bioconversion to turn waste into useful resources like animal feed in a much more sustainable and natural way.

[02:00] Jake: Wow, that’s a great opening line, thank you. Okay, and so to dig into that and start to unpack slightly, did you have a particular problem area that you started at, that you figured was something that was felt by many people and it was something that you really wanted to try and find something, let’s say, a solution to actually deal with? How exactly did you end up at that starting point, shall we say?

[2:20] Matt: Yeah, so, we actually started out about four years ago, just as we were all studying at the University of Cambridge, myself and my colleagues. And we actually had, we’ve got to get, I guess, serendipitously, throughout, you know, the various events and things, we met each other at a sustainable challenge, which was based around the idea of basically solving a food waste challenge or coming up with innovative ways to address food waste, which is, of course, a huge issue around the world. So, we really started off with the very first principle, look at food waste, and trying to understand, you know, what it was and what the market looked like, and what kind of technologies you know, were available, that could be a solution. And of course, there’s things out there like you know, composting and anaerobic digestion, which is pretty common UK today. And I think especially four or five years ago, there was, I guess, a few up and coming companies and a bit of literature coming out around insect bioconversion, which is, of course, how, you know, in nature that this is how a lot of these kind of natural recycling processes occur. Different types of insects or microorganisms, basically turning low value food waste into some kind of resource or energy.

[03:22] Matt: So, we really looked at insects as almost a natural way, as converting or transforming food waste in something more useful. So, I think we didn’t really start off with the very first principles blank page, look at food waste to start with, which really led us towards insects as being quite, I think, an attractive or interesting solution, which seemed to be, again, early stage enough that it was, you know, quite exciting and quite innovative but there was enough, I guess, established literature, and even a few companies out there that had done enough work to show that it was possible. And it was likely to be something that was interesting at a commercial level going forward. That’s how we arrived at this sort of the unusual idea of using insects as a food waste, as conversion.

[4:02] Jake: Awesome. And I mean, a few things to unpack there straight away, man. I mean, food waste is a colossal problem and I couldn’t agree more. One of my favorite books I read in recent years is the, Project Drawdown and they talk about the impacts of the reduction in deforestation, if we can actually stall for 30% of produce that we currently waste on an annual basis, literally perishes, it’s absolutely crazy. And then the secondary of being, you know, using nature to solve some of these man-made issues, it’s such a great, kind of, Genesis, I guess, to come up with an idea. Oh, fantastic and I really follow the thought process there, what an awesome starting point. The third point, I guess, to bring out as well as the fact that you were actually already at Cambridge, and I’m sure there must be so much innovation and exciting technology, and people at an institution like that. We’ll unpack a little bit how you found your team later on but just to carry on along this kind of problem, solution step. So, you came across insects, well, how do you solve food waste with insects?

[5:03] Matt: Yes, I think we are, again, we sort of pretending that we’re sort of saying that nature actually has the blueprint, we’re just trying to, I guess, put some structure around it. But the idea is simply that there’s certain types of insects, like the black soldier flowers, the insect that we use, the grubs are very good at essentially converting low value food waste, metabolizing that into high value fats and proteins as they grow, which is, of course, a natural feed for things like poultry and salmon. So, it really is just almost, you know, letting nature do its thing and providing the structure around it from the engineering and a bit of extra biology to make that, I guess, scalable. And really, we are sort of saying that model is something which nature already does, and which you know, looking at the end markets there, it is totally natural for chicken to be scratching around and eating grubs and it’s actually something which we see, as you know, consumers really getting behind in terms of going back to a more natural, I guess, feed.

[05:56] Matt: So, again, we can talk about the issues around the food industry, but certainly, the idea is that it’s quite simple, like most things in nature. The hard part is, of course, putting the structure around it and making it scalable, but certainly the idea of insects, I assume, metabolizing low value stuff into high value stuff that is, in its essence, what we’re looking to leverage, a natural solution, which already exists.

[6:18] Jake: Interesting, okay. And like, all startup ideas, you’ve got this idea, you’ve got this concept, well, a theory that you know, I love using is the customer discovery process. So, even if you could solve this problem, who’s actually out there, that might want to buy it from you? As a team, you got together, you assume have some complementary skills, how did you go about really kind of trying to justify this assumption that you were making about the solution you put together?

[6:46] Matt: Yeah, well, I think the first thing was just doing a lot of, you know, reading, really, advancing the scientific literature side of things, and also just about the market. You know, we didn’t have direct backgrounds into the food or agriculture cells, we came from backgrounds like an engineering, biology, I myself was in finance consulting. So, it was very much a sort of a learning curve to understand what is, food waste, you know, what kind of challenges are there and what does the market look like, in terms of existing solutions and what’s already out there. We started off, I guess, by looking at, you know, what happens in our local area. So, we started talking to some supermarkets, we talked the local Cambridge council here, we talked to people who were experts in technologies like composting, anaerobic digestion, to understand how they kind of had built businesses, and what kind of economics drove a lot of the food waste industry. And it is quite interesting, because it is something which, you know, like most things to do with food, it’s very complex and certainly there’s no government regulations and safety regulations, which are also, I guess, clouding the, I guess, the numbers as well, in terms of it’s not just, you know, it’s not just about the technology, it’s about consumer safety, and it’s about traceability, and it’s about, you know, making sure that when people buy food at the store, it’s going to be something where there is that balance of trying to meet them sustainable, but also trying to be safe.

[08:01] Matt: So, we learned a lot about the industry but yes, certainly, it’s something which we felt like there was gaps, and there was, I guess, opportunities to improve. You know, we look at things like obviously, landfill being the worst-case solution, certainly trying to divert as much food waste from landfill as possible. And even before that, looking at, you know, ways that other people are doing interesting work around reducing food waste in the first place, like you mentioned earlier, I think there’s, obviously before we even talk about our business, we also need to recognize that, you know, reducing food waste in the first place is almost the first priority. Then for the unavoidable fraction or the stuff which actually inevitably gets left, I think, we saw anaerobic digestion as probably the gold standard in the UK and Europe today. That’s essentially the process where you try and capture rotting food, you capture the methane, and you use that with energy or heat, which is certainly a great step forward. And there’s been a lot of investments in this country and elsewhere, over the last sort of 10 years or so. And it’s something which, you know, there is a subsidy tied to that, ir this sort of indirect subsidies around, heat incentives, there’s you know, feeding terrorists, it’s something where the governments already tried to get behind this and make an effort to make the industry more, green.

[09:12] Matt: I think, for us, it’s interesting, trying to understand how we fit in the subsidies, how we kind of can navigate not just the commercial challenge, but the regulatory challenge. And, you know, also these things require a huge amount of investments and how we kind of position and how we look in at the market for green tech and Agri tech investments, and being able to compete, I guess, on a commercial basis, ultimately, long term. It’s something where we’ve been lucky enough to get a few sorts of startup grants from certain organizations and the government. So, that helps us develop some of that technology but certainly, you know, getting up to, you know, on a parody, if you like, on a commercially competitive level is the goal here. And I think if you think about the waste hierarchy, some people have this idea of a pyramid where, of course, the first thing to do is not waste at all, the second thing to do would be to try and feed it to people, you know, through charities, or food banks and the like.

[10:07] Matt: And I think from there, you see, that actually seems to be a better use of food waste to try and put it back into the food chain, either through animal feed, or even through composting, before you think about making energy from it. I think the idea is that there’s already great renewable energy sources out there, that sort of burning food waste, essentially, for energy, and heat maybe isn’t the best use of longer term, but we certainly recognize that there’s been some great steps, you know, made in the last sort of 10, 15 years, and we feel like, you know, putting food back into the food waste, back into the food chain as something which, you know, it’s actually quite a compelling theme for us to be to be working on.

[10:48] Jake: It feels like it has a nice, kind of cyclical element to it in that sense.

[10:52] Matt: Yes, absolutely.

[10:54] Jake: You know, I’ll try and comment as a green energy buyer in the UK here, an on-grid apartment in London, you can buy renewable energy tariff, but you cannot buy green gas, I think the best green gas tariff is 93% natural gas too. So, that’s even with all the anaerobic digesters that are currently being utilized in the energy market here. Presumably switching to electrical heating, will be an easier way of transforming our heating system but another topic.

[11:26] Matt: Certainly, it’s all part of the sustainability challenge, and some great work going on there as well in the energy space.

[11:33] Jake: And so much stuff to really talk about, it’s amazing Matt, what a journey you’ve been on, it’s awesome to learn about. There was clearly lots of research that you did with you and your colleagues at an early stage, you’ve seen a problem, you’ve seen a solution, you’ve seen an opportunity, like all entrepreneurs, it’s that kind of leap of faith moment. And you go, okay, right, this is what I want to do full time, this is what I want to go for. Do you have any time on reflection that you really realize this was what you wanted to spend your time on? And realizing that, you know, one of the kinds of Holy Grail, so to speak, is the early traction? It’s like, how do you go out there and you get a little bit of early traction with it, so a letter of intent from a business or your first paying customer? I’d love to hear a little bit about how that process went for you.

[12:15] Matt: Yes, certainly. So, I think we were relatively lucky in the sense that myself and my colleagues, were actually really close, quite close to graduating when we were sort of working on this idea. So, once we graduated, I think that was that moment where as you said, it was a choice, or do we keep working on this part time? Or do we just drop it and you know, try and get a real job, I think the idea was that, we had been, I guess, working on a few little prototypes and things which were quite interesting. But the first real, I guess, proof point or bit of traction, or maybe even motivation was, we’d applied for a very small, you know, almost innovation competition, which was run by Shell, funnily enough, and that would know supporting sort of green technologies and green–

[12:55] Jake: Yeah, the Shell Foundation, it’s cool, isn’t it?

[13:00] Matt: Absolutely. And show, it’s called the show live wire program. And again, it’s a really good little program but certainly, we had applied for that, failure early on. And we ended up, I guess, winning this sort of monthly innovation competition, and we got, you know, just a few thousand pounds, which was, again, not much in the grand scheme of things. But I think, in terms of motivation, in terms of maybe validation of what we were doing, I think we were actually like, whoa, this could be something which, you know, other people find as interesting as we do. And that I think, gave us a bit of motivation to really just spend six months to do it full time, build the first of all prototypes and see what we could actually do. And so, there was a few more points after that, where we felt like, let’s keep it going. But I think that was probably for me, looking back the moment where we felt like this could be more than just a cool little University project, which it was up until that point.

[13:54] Jake: Right, it’s just amazing when you hear the journey people take in the decision-making processes along the way. Because it’s almost like, a set of stepping stones instead of milestones and although you can dream, that big vision in the future, you’ve actually got to trace it back to those first steps are so important.

[14:13] Matt: Absolutely. I think just, you know, there’s lots of people have, you know, these big visions, they want to try to change the world, but I think it is just a series of small steps, and even little, you know, little things like that can do a lot for the, you know, just, as I said, the motivation or the mental side of things, even now, let alone that the commercial side, I think a lot of it is just the confidence to keep going or the confidence to kind of push through certain challenges. Yeah, little steps like that and certainly a few backward steps, of course, along the way that hopefully the right direction.

[14:43] Jake: Oh, no, what am I doing spending my time on this?

[14:46] Matt: Yeah. Sometimes you don’t really know until you actually do something, and it doesn’t work and that’s fine. You just got to move on and cut your losses.

[14:54] Jake: It’s just such good insight, I mean, for those people that will hopefully be listening out there, to hear about someone’s real story where, you know, you did take a bunch of small steps and actually, that’s now developed into where you are today. And well, that brings me nicely on to the next stage, I guess, to talk more about Entomics in its form today, you guys have recently closed a financing round for which the Green Angel Syndicate was apart. And therefore, you’ve already been through a proper investment round, along with some of the grant applications you would have done in the past, which is such an important part of it. So, for people listening out there, I mean, what advice would you give to people when they go to begin a fundraise? And what kind of idea stage or stage of the business were you at when you began? And, yeah, any insight on how to best go about it?

[15:41] Matt: Yeah. And I think it’s a complex question, in the sense that different technologies, or different companies will have different requirements, in terms of what they need to do to grow or to be successful. Certainly, some things, you probably don’t need a huge amount of, maybe cash to get first, you know, prototypes or minimum viable products working. So, I think for us, it was all about, before we started thinking about investment, it was almost proving to ourselves, that this was something that worked or at least was feasible, and that we could be selling to other people to actually, you know, sort of pull it off. And I think that really goes back to the idea of bootstrapping, and just using very little resource to try and create just some basic proof points to start with, not just for investors and customers, but I think also for yourself. So, it’s amazing, if you really try and you know, lower your costs to start with what you can do, I think, with just a couple of smart people, even just part time to start with, if you can’t afford to dedicate your full time to a certain venture, there is quite a lot you can do, I think just to just validate those early stages in terms of technology, or in terms of the customer traction.

[16:46] Matt: So, we did try to spend almost a year and a half, you know, just scraping together from small little competition winnings or a few small, corporate, you know, almost donations, I guess, again, nothing big, but certainly just enough to keep things ticking along before we felt like we had the vision and the technology, at least crystallized enough that we had to have a viable investment proposition. And certainly, in our kind of industry, where it is the intersection of things like sustainability, you know, in food security in the UK, food waste, there’s a lot of things which, these are big challenges. And we were lucky enough to get a few small grants around innovation for developing these early stage technologies. So, that certainly helped us in terms of investment. Yeah, at some stage, it’s just a choice, how quickly do you need to grow? Or what kind of stage do you need to be at for your customers to feel like, you know, they want to sign up? And for your kind of technology yeah, is it something where we needed that support, and we’re very grateful to have, you know, investors like Green Angel Syndicate, 17:49 [inaudible], as well as other high net worth individuals on board, because they provide, obviously, the support to get us to the next stage.

[17:55] Matt: But also, they provide some excellent guidance and just insight into different networks and different industries, which we might not have. And it’s a lot of people who’ve done quite a lot of things, which we’ve certainly been benefited from their insights. So, I think, yeah, looking back, I think investment is fantastic but it’s certainly something which differs, you know, by the company, and the requirements should be based on what you actually need to grow, not any kind of arbitrary number. And it’s something where you, I think, for me, looking back, there is quite a lot you can do. This is, I guess, to start with, to prove the concept and to get traction with, you know, very small amount of resource, you know, bootstrapping, whatever you want to call it. And I think that’s also key and it helps you, maybe hit a few dead ends and you know, get on the right path, maybe before you really try and lock down these funding rounds.

[18:48] Jake: Because there is a sense of responsibility as well isn’t there? It’s, yes, you are selling some of your baby, some of your idea, in exchange for capital, and in exchange for some of the experience in context that comes with it. But equally, once you have a full-time investor on board, you then have some shareholders that actually really do care about the success of the business alongside you. And so, yeah, making sure you’ve gone down those slightly blind alleys beforehand, I guess, it’s really helpful to me that you don’t have to go back to investors and go and say, guys, I’m afraid we burn through that cash and we hit a bit of a dead end, but, we’ve got another great idea.


[19:31] Matt: Yeah, well, I think it’s certainly tried and minimize those at least. And even as a small company, we’re still a small company, I’m sure there’ll be moments when, you know, we’ll have to keep tweaking or pivoting. But yeah, I think looking back to four years ago, we certainly feel like we have a bit more of a grasp or much more of a grasp of the challenge. And that’s, I guess, just a necessary part of going through the process over the last couple of years of learning and failing and getting up again and improving.

[19:58] Jake: And so, a big part of investing at this stage is, of course, the team that you’re investing into. And an investor will look at the metrics about the market size, they’ll look at the potential exit comparable, but at the end of the day, you’re investing at such an early stage in the business, you really have to implicitly trust in the talent of that team. Could you unpack a little bit about your colleagues and how you guys came together? And how exciting it is, as a young startup with a really cool team with you?

[20:26] Matt: Yeah, absolutely. So, like I said, we actually were all students at the University of Cambridge. And we actually were graduating relatively close together, I guess we’re in our final years. So, you know, for example, one of my colleagues was studying engineering, another colleague was studying biochemistry or cancer research, I was actually in the business school doing an MBA. So, I think if you think about all the different skill set that actually is, maybe the perfect little, I guess, skill set that would be useful for insect bioconversion, which is essentially integration of engineering and biology, in some sense, in terms of that the technology side and me hopefully, being able to add a few things on the commercial side. But yeah, we seem to be–

[21:06] Jake: You have to be able to sell at some point, right, so an engineer who does value a sales person in that sense, or someone who’s better on the financial side of things, but at the same time, the hardcore kind of scientific chemist, is also needed, I completely follow you, it’s an awesome, sounds like an awesome team.

[21:21] Matt: Yeah, and again, that’ll change, I’m sure, by different companies, you know, what, sort of, team you need to start with, but we felt like we had the right mix of skills to get this going and it was appropriate to what we’re trying to do. And we’ve actually, too, build the team up to I think that 10 individuals now, so also trying to complement the team with you know, additional engineering and biology support, also some project management support, and, you know, even interns during the summer to try and almost plug little gap to interesting, kind of, side projects that might be worth pursuing. So, yeah, we’ve, sort of tried to add to the team, over the last, you know, couple of years in terms of what we actually need now, but also looking forward towards what we actually need to build towards the future. And a lot of it is around again, just a constant challenge of really complex, you know, biology and engineering.

[22:09] Matt: And it hasn’t really necessarily been done before at big scale, there’s a few other companies who are leading the way I guess, and pioneering different things, but it’s a new industry, and even things like regulatory approvals and certifications and these kind of things are all, almost a new topic of conversation, when we speak to, you know, regulatory agencies or companies, we have to almost break new ground, you know, as we go, and yeah, we try and hire bright young people who are passionate about sustainability. And that sort of obviously, is just as important as what sort of technical skills they bring. So, yeah, we think we’ve put together you know, some good people, and we continue to hopefully build that out and grow the team going forward.

[22:51] Jake: And that leads me on brilliantly to ask my next question. So, so much of what this is all about is the wider mission, so we all understand there is a serious problem with sustainability at the moment, and how we manage the next 50 years in our missions is a very important step in our children’s lives if we ever get to that point. And it’s very clear listening to that, you know, some of your passion to do this, is coming from this mission, basically, which is around sustainability, just from that impact perspective, if a business like Entomics, really gets to scale, what kind of emissions reduction impact might the business have? In say, you know, well, in your wildest dreams, I mean, just to kind of break down a little bit about the food chain that it changes, and the emissions that are removed there and the impacts that that might have?

[23:45] Matt: Yeah, well, it’s certainly a very interesting question and a very complex one to even measure.

[23:50] Jake: Of course, I agree.

[23:54] Matt: Yeah, the idea with insect bioconversion is that it’s not just sorts of direct impacts, it’s also trying to see the benefits of indirect, you know, land use change. And I think the big one, sort of for us, is obviously, there’s the food waste challenge of getting rid of food waste, which I think, emits, you know, there’s always statistics around the idea that food waste, if it was classified as its own separate country, like that kind of category, even the third largest greenhouse gas meter of the US and China. So, there’s actually a huge amount of contribution to greenhouse gases coming from food waste as a thing, which maybe doesn’t get appreciated as much, as you know, talking about fossil fuels and different other areas. So, food waste definitely is a massive issue, and one third of all food is wasted globally. So just a huge amount, there’s that kind of direct impact–


[24:41] Matt: Yeah, well, I think that the challenge with some of these agricultural and sort of food related challenges is that they are so big, that sometimes you almost feel like the numbers are just hard to comprehend them but, you know, those are the kind of things which, you know, we do need solutions to and not just insect bioconversion, but other really great solutions to try and, you know, reduce the impact of food, its impact on the environment to make it more natural, more circular, more sustainable. So, there’s certainly for us, you know, the ambition to try and, you know, significantly reduce the impact of food waste on the environment by diverting it to a use where we’re making the most of it, and we’re basically turning it from a waste into a resource again. But further downstream, I think you look at what we’re trying to do in the animal feed side and things like you know, feeding poultry or feeding salmon, which they eat insects in the wild naturally, of course, I think we’d be trying to actually, to some extent replace or supplement some of the ingredients that are used today, like soy, for example, like a protein, which comes mostly from overseas places like Brazil, with sensitive rainforest regions, that deforestation, these kind of land use issues at the front of mind of a lot of retailers, a lot of consumers, a lot of NGOs who realize obviously, there’s, how do you even measure the impact of you know, cutting down an acre of rainforest?

[25:59] Matt: There’s so many sorts of biodiversity related issues, there are so many kinds of future, you know, potential negative shocks that could occur from these kinds of sensitive ecosystems, you know, being removed. So, I think the idea is that if we can actually introduce an ingredient or feed, that’s actually been powered by a waste source, quote, and quote, rather than kind of planting fresh crops and, and cutting down rainforest to actually feed the world. That’s something which, again, we’ve got some, you know, numbers internally, and we’re still messing around with things, but it’s actually really difficult, if not, currently, you know, impossible to get numbers on what the actual impact on that looks like. And certainly, for us, it’s a combination of all those different things which seemed to fit, you know, this storyline around insects, you know, converting stuff from waste, and creating your natural high value feed products.

[26:47] Matt: And so, soy is the big one, you know, that a lot of people talk about, there’s also things like fish meal, which is present in the diets of farmed salmon in Scotland. So, again, just the way that the industry set out, you know, you have a lot of feeds that would include things like fish meal, which comes from small forage fish, like anchovies, from places, you know, primarily Chile and Peru, places in the world where these fisheries exist. And transporting fish meal from anchovies, across the world to Scotland to feed farmed fish. I mean, again, there’s certainly been some improvements in the way that quoters have tried to manage those fisheries and there are some, you know, obviously great interventions that have slowed or improve the health of those fisheries.

[27:29] Matt: But I think we would just suggest that if we can actually build, you know, feed solutions that are more local, that are actually based near the end user that don’t have to have all the carbon miles attached and actually don’t have to almost take, you know, again, harvesting almost fresh fish, which humans could eat, these kind of things seem to be where insects can sort of be an interesting solution. And not the only solution but something, which at least, addresses some simultaneous challenges which are out there, both on the food waste reduction side, or, you know, food waste reallocation side and also on the feed sustainability side. There‚Äôre almost two ends or two sides to the insect bargain version solution, which we feel they’re solving multiple problems at once.

[28:18] Jake: So exciting. Well, Matt, I must say thank you very much for sharing that with us. I was going to ask a final question around vision, but I feel like the last question is really summarize so many of the areas that you feel like your business, who will have real impact in and that really covers my last question, I think. Thank you so much sharing your story at Entomics and I appreciate your time. Thank you

[28:42] Matt: Thanks, Jake and good luck with the podcast. And thanks for having me on, it’s a pleasure.

[28:46] Jake: No problem. Cheers, Matt.

[28:48] Matt: Alright, thanks, Jake. Goodbye.

[28:51] Jake: That was the Green Addventure, thank you for listening. If you enjoyed the show, then please help us out by sharing this episode with your networks and rating us on the platform, wherever you may listen in from. For any questions at all, we’d love to hear from you, so please reach out on social media or email. Whether you’re wondering about a technical term that’s been discussed, would like an intro to a guest from the show, or even perhaps feature yourselves, we’re here to help. My Twitter handle is @JakeWoodhous, spell as it sounds, but drop the final ‘E’, my email Remember that add spelt with two D’s. Finally, for the notes, links and episodes, that will be coming, visit Remember, that’s add with a double D. Until next time, we’ll be back soon. Thank you and goodbye.

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